Mark Potash must be on some sort of mission. A mission to share ill-informed opinions about Chicago baseball. Poor town. So Potash spits out this article continuing his evaluation of Chicago baseball players:
Sorry White Sox fans, but Mr. Cub is Mr. Chicago.
Ernie Banks was an easy choice as the No. 1 Cubs player of all-time when the Sun-Times rated the top players in each of the city's major pro teams in February and March. Frank Thomas was an easy choice as the No. 1 player in Sox history.
But in a Cubs vs. Sox list of best players in the wake of the BP Crosstown Cup series at U.S. Cellular Field this weekend,
Wait, wait, wait. Chicago named their series the BP Crosstown Cup series? Brilliant timing Chi-Town. I'm planning on having a crosstown bicycle race here in Bronson, MI called the Kellogg's Special K Bowl.
Banks gets the edge over Big Frank as the best Chicago player of all-time. And actually, it's not that close.
I am vaguely familiar with each players career. I doubt that last sentence very much.
Banks put up unprecedented numbers as a shortstop -- from 1955-60 he averaged 41 homers and 116 RBI, won two home run titles, two RBI titles and back-to-back MVP awards in 1958-59.
That is a crazy 5 year period. It really is, especially for a short-stop. He put up a WAR of 48.8 during those 6 years. Thomas peak would be around 41.1. Looking deeper Banks WAR is being carrier by his fielding, which is equally hurting Thomas. Seriously as good as Banks was a fielding, Thomas was as bad.
And in 1960 he led the NL in home runs with 41 and won the Gold Glove at shortstop.
Neat-o!
Banks extended his career by playing first base. Thomas started at first base, tired of it and extended his career as a DH. In fact, Banks played more games at first base (1,259) than Thomas (971).
Don't care about any of that. Games played at first? Great. Was a DH? That's up to how you feel about DHing. If you hate it you're going to give Banks the edge.
But Thomas still gets his due in our position-by-position list of best Sox/Cubs of all-time. With Banks at shortstop, Thomas is the clear choice at first base over the great Dick Allen and the the Cubs' Phil Cavaretta, the pride of Lane Tech. And he deserves it. Thomas batted .275 with 29 home runs and 117 RBI per 500 at-bats as a first baseman with the White Sox. It's not like he couldn't play the position. He just preferred to hit.
I'm trying to decide how to make the case for Thomas. Stat by stat? Or one their lines on top of each other? Let's do both.
Banks .274/.330/.500/.830 OPS+ 122 WOBA .358 WAR 74.1 Fielding 54
Thomas .301/.419/.555/.974 OPS+156 WOBA .379 WAR 79.1 Fielding -68.2
I would say offensively it's not even close. When it comes to fielding Banks is so far superior they're not even playing the same game. The DH probably saves Thomas in WAR since his fielding constantly hurt him. My point though is, it's a close call. If you're a Cubs fan, you'll say Banks because he was the complete player. If you're a Sox fan you'll say Thomas because he was one of the greatest hitters of all time, far beyond Banks.
What I'm trying to say is this:
Banks gets the edge over Big Frank as the best Chicago player of all-time. And actually, it's not that close.
is bull.
Case Closed.
Showing posts with label Frank Thomas. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Frank Thomas. Show all posts
Monday, June 28, 2010
Friday, February 26, 2010
Mark Potash just made my blog
Congrates man. Now I know this was probably just a throw away introduction to the best White Sox players of all time, but you still spit the bit here. (Me in regular/Mark in italics)
No question Frank Thomas is the best hitter in White Sox history. But is he the best player?
Baseball purists probably would look elsewhere for the No. 1 player in the history of a franchise -- for somebody who not only produced at the plate, but in the field. Or at least played in the field.
That wouldn't be Thomas.
A valid assessment. Looks like you're going to pick someone else as the greatest players, maybe Shoeless Joe or Appling
As great of an athlete as he is, he was never a dancing bear at first base.
A dancing bear at first base seems like a promotional night from the ghost of Bill Veeck. And yes, it probably would have more range than Thomas. I think you might go with Luis Aparicio Mark, he was solid on both sides of the ball.
Eventually, his disdain for playing in the field tagged him as not only one-dimensional, but selfish.
Yes, it was selfish for him to not want to play a position he wasn't good at. Better he drag the team down with him, that's unselfish.
And counterproductive. As a designated hitter, Thomas batted .275 with 29 home runs and 94 RBI per 500 at-bats. As a first baseman, he hit .337 with 36 home runs and 117 RBI per 500 at-bats.
That's a really great job of cherry-picking statistics without giving any context. You see, Thomas played 1st base in the beginning of his career, when he was a monster. After age 30 he played DH mostly, when he was in decline and had nagging injuries. So of course his numbers as a DH are going to be worse. You're basically comparing two different players. A young healthy player in the prime of his career vs. an older player on his way out.
If he cares about his numbers as dearly as citics (sic) say he does, he should have been begging to play the field, maybe even working to get better at it.
No question Frank Thomas is the best hitter in White Sox history. But is he the best player?
Baseball purists probably would look elsewhere for the No. 1 player in the history of a franchise -- for somebody who not only produced at the plate, but in the field. Or at least played in the field.
That wouldn't be Thomas.
A valid assessment. Looks like you're going to pick someone else as the greatest players, maybe Shoeless Joe or Appling
As great of an athlete as he is, he was never a dancing bear at first base.
A dancing bear at first base seems like a promotional night from the ghost of Bill Veeck. And yes, it probably would have more range than Thomas. I think you might go with Luis Aparicio Mark, he was solid on both sides of the ball.
Eventually, his disdain for playing in the field tagged him as not only one-dimensional, but selfish.
Yes, it was selfish for him to not want to play a position he wasn't good at. Better he drag the team down with him, that's unselfish.
And counterproductive. As a designated hitter, Thomas batted .275 with 29 home runs and 94 RBI per 500 at-bats. As a first baseman, he hit .337 with 36 home runs and 117 RBI per 500 at-bats.
That's a really great job of cherry-picking statistics without giving any context. You see, Thomas played 1st base in the beginning of his career, when he was a monster. After age 30 he played DH mostly, when he was in decline and had nagging injuries. So of course his numbers as a DH are going to be worse. You're basically comparing two different players. A young healthy player in the prime of his career vs. an older player on his way out.
If he cares about his numbers as dearly as citics (sic) say he does, he should have been begging to play the field, maybe even working to get better at it.
I have no way to know if Frank worked on playing first base better or not. I wasn't at spring training or at their practices during the season. But I doubt a major league athlete with Thomas' ego just gave up and allowed himself to look like a minor leaguer at 1st base. And the idea that his hitting and fielding are directly correlated is ridiculous as I showed in the paragraph before.
If it were a close call, it would be tough to choose him. In 16 years with the Sox he played 971 games at first base, 960 as a DH.
Well, it looks like Mark is going to go with someone else from White Sox history.
But it's not a close call.
Wha?!?!?!
Besides being the Sox' all-time leader in home runs (448), RBI (1,465), doubles (447), runs scored (1,327), on-base percentage (.427) and OPS (.995), he has monstrous seasons that put him in a class with Ted Williams, Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig among the best hitters of all-time. Two MVP awards, a second and two thirds.
Thomas' accomplishments are so far ahead of everybody else in Sox history, he is the clear choice as the No. 1 Sox player of all time. You can't say he didn't earn it.
SWERVE!!!! Someone went to the Vince Russo school of writing.
Case Closed!
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
George Bremer Puts The Big Hurt On the English Language
George, like the rest of us heard about Frank Thomas' retirement on Friday. I'm hoping he did not spend the next 3 days working on this stinker of an article. (Me in regular/George in italics)
Big Hurt Truly Did It His Way
At 6-foot-5, 257 pounds, Frank Thomas is a giant literally and figuratively.
Going by that sentence you just mean literally unless you're going to point out that he is the greatest White Sox hitter in the next sentence.
The man Ken Harrelson dubbed "The Big Hurt" also is a walking contradiction.
Guess not. Also, keep that "walking contradiction" thing in mind. That should be the theme of the article.
A former tight end at Auburn, he once reportedly cried softly at his locker after being dressed down by then-shortstop Ozzie Guillen early in his career.
If Ozzie Guillen dressed me down, I'd spend the night in shower eating chocolate ice cream and sobbing like child. So Frank beats me on that one.
A man allegedly obsessed with his personal statistics, he talked longingly of playing his entire career with the Chicago White Sox and bringing a World Series championship to the South Siders.
Still looking for a contradiction...or that figurative giant thing you pointed out...
Thomas officially retired Friday, though he hasn’t played in the majors since 2008. With The Big Hurt, however, nothing’s simple.
He retired. How complicated is that? The man held on last year hoping to get picked up by a team. It didn't happen. Lots of players do this in their final years. They just aren't huge stars like Thomas.
He spent the first nine seasons of his career hitting like Ted Williams and the final 10 hewing closer to Dave Kingman.
Is that supposed to be the contradiction thing? I don't understand...
When the White Sox finally won the World Series in 2005, an injured Thomas played in just 34 games. He still managed to hit 12 home runs.
Yes, that was a sweet month for him, and White Sox fans I presume. However...not a contradiction.
After the season, he was released by the franchise that drafted him with the seventh overall pick of the 1989 amateur draft. He played 60 games in the majors a year later and won back-to-back American League MVP awards in 1993 and 1994.
Wait. He played in 60 games a year after he was released or a year after being drafted? Nice Timecop trick there, starting the paragraph in 2005, jumping back to 1989, then ending in 1994. Van Damme would be proud.
Much of his early career in the Windy City was overshadowed by Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls. By the time Jordan left the city for good following the 1997-98 NBA season, the Cubs’ Sammy Sosa became the new favorite son.
Yeah, not a contradiction. It also argues against the whole "figurative giant" statement from earlier.
Perhaps that’s why Thomas never seemed to get the recognition his numbers said he deserved. In 1993, when the White Sox won their final American League West Division title, he hit .317 with 41 homers and 128 RBIs. A year later, in a strike-shortened year, he hit .353 with 38 homers and 101 RBIs.
Um, two league MVP's aren't recognition? Also a lot of people I heard talking about it on the airwaves think he's a first-ballot hall-of-famer. That would seem to be recognition.
But his most impressive contribution came off the field.
During an era plagued by performance-enhancing drugs, Thomas was never questioned. In fact, he was the only active player to volunteer to speak with George Mitchell, the former senator investigating the depth of steroid use in the sport.
Good for him. However...not his MOST IMPRESSIVE contribution. That was most definitely ON THE FIELD. If he cures Alzheimer's, then we'll talk.
Thomas reportedly wasn’t always the best teammate. He certainly wasn’t always great with the media. And he once embarrassingly admitted he wasn’t familiar with Jackie Robinson’s career.
That's actually pretty sad. But not a contradiction.
But he was -- with apologies to Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio and Harold Baines -- the greatest player ever to don a White Sox jersey.
Not...a...contra...diction.
Thomas showed hard work and determination can outdistance pharmacology.
And, despite his faults, he was a hero in a game in dire need of them.
One of baseball’s all-time greats rode into the sunset Friday, and we’re all a little poorer for it.
Terrific George. You completely ignored the main point of your own article. And, if I may quote from you, "We're all a little poorer for it."
Case Closed.
Big Hurt Truly Did It His Way
At 6-foot-5, 257 pounds, Frank Thomas is a giant literally and figuratively.
Going by that sentence you just mean literally unless you're going to point out that he is the greatest White Sox hitter in the next sentence.
The man Ken Harrelson dubbed "The Big Hurt" also is a walking contradiction.
Guess not. Also, keep that "walking contradiction" thing in mind. That should be the theme of the article.
A former tight end at Auburn, he once reportedly cried softly at his locker after being dressed down by then-shortstop Ozzie Guillen early in his career.
If Ozzie Guillen dressed me down, I'd spend the night in shower eating chocolate ice cream and sobbing like child. So Frank beats me on that one.
A man allegedly obsessed with his personal statistics, he talked longingly of playing his entire career with the Chicago White Sox and bringing a World Series championship to the South Siders.
Still looking for a contradiction...or that figurative giant thing you pointed out...
Thomas officially retired Friday, though he hasn’t played in the majors since 2008. With The Big Hurt, however, nothing’s simple.
He retired. How complicated is that? The man held on last year hoping to get picked up by a team. It didn't happen. Lots of players do this in their final years. They just aren't huge stars like Thomas.
He spent the first nine seasons of his career hitting like Ted Williams and the final 10 hewing closer to Dave Kingman.
Is that supposed to be the contradiction thing? I don't understand...
When the White Sox finally won the World Series in 2005, an injured Thomas played in just 34 games. He still managed to hit 12 home runs.
Yes, that was a sweet month for him, and White Sox fans I presume. However...not a contradiction.
After the season, he was released by the franchise that drafted him with the seventh overall pick of the 1989 amateur draft. He played 60 games in the majors a year later and won back-to-back American League MVP awards in 1993 and 1994.
Wait. He played in 60 games a year after he was released or a year after being drafted? Nice Timecop trick there, starting the paragraph in 2005, jumping back to 1989, then ending in 1994. Van Damme would be proud.
Much of his early career in the Windy City was overshadowed by Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls. By the time Jordan left the city for good following the 1997-98 NBA season, the Cubs’ Sammy Sosa became the new favorite son.
Yeah, not a contradiction. It also argues against the whole "figurative giant" statement from earlier.
Perhaps that’s why Thomas never seemed to get the recognition his numbers said he deserved. In 1993, when the White Sox won their final American League West Division title, he hit .317 with 41 homers and 128 RBIs. A year later, in a strike-shortened year, he hit .353 with 38 homers and 101 RBIs.
Um, two league MVP's aren't recognition? Also a lot of people I heard talking about it on the airwaves think he's a first-ballot hall-of-famer. That would seem to be recognition.
But his most impressive contribution came off the field.
During an era plagued by performance-enhancing drugs, Thomas was never questioned. In fact, he was the only active player to volunteer to speak with George Mitchell, the former senator investigating the depth of steroid use in the sport.
Good for him. However...not his MOST IMPRESSIVE contribution. That was most definitely ON THE FIELD. If he cures Alzheimer's, then we'll talk.
Thomas reportedly wasn’t always the best teammate. He certainly wasn’t always great with the media. And he once embarrassingly admitted he wasn’t familiar with Jackie Robinson’s career.
That's actually pretty sad. But not a contradiction.
But he was -- with apologies to Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio and Harold Baines -- the greatest player ever to don a White Sox jersey.
Not...a...contra...diction.
Thomas showed hard work and determination can outdistance pharmacology.
And, despite his faults, he was a hero in a game in dire need of them.
One of baseball’s all-time greats rode into the sunset Friday, and we’re all a little poorer for it.
Terrific George. You completely ignored the main point of your own article. And, if I may quote from you, "We're all a little poorer for it."
Case Closed.
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